Roche has a big problem. With competition threatening some of its older and most lucrative biologic drugs, the Swiss pharmaceutical giant

罗氏有一个大问题。随着竞争威胁到一些较老且最有利可图的生物药物，这家瑞士制药巨头

expects

期望

that, in three years time, sales from these assets will decline by roughly $8 billion.

三年后，这些资产的销售额将下降约80亿美元。

Despite this looming danger, Roche’s leaders have, at least publicly, put on a brave face. They’ve reshaped the company’s structure and research priorities, and assured shareholders that new products and a handful of experimental medicines should more than make up for the financial losses. Some of those assets were developed internally, but others came from a recent tear of dealmaking..

。他们重塑了公司的结构和研究重点，并向股东保证，新产品和少数实验药物应该能够弥补财务损失。其中一些资产是内部开发的，但其他资产则来自最近的交易破裂。。

Since the summer of 2023, Roche has inked three acquisitions worth more than $1 billion — including the

自2023年夏天以来，罗氏已经签署了三项价值超过10亿美元的收购协议，其中包括

$7.2 billion purchase of Televant

72亿美元收购Televant

— and entered into a laundry list of licensing agreements and research pacts. Those smaller deals include a partnership with

-并签署了许可协议和研究协议的详细清单。这些规模较小的交易包括与

AI chipmaker Nvidia

AI芯片制造商Nvidia

,

,

several

几个

bets

赌注

on

在

genetic medicines

遗传药物

, as well as investments into hot areas of science like

，以及对热门科学领域的投资，例如

protein degraders

蛋白质降解剂

and

和

a class of cancer therapies

一类癌症疗法

known as ADCs.

称为ADC。

Critical investors could argue Roche’s dealmaking is a bit scattered. The company’s main interests span five research fields, from oncology, immunology and neuroscience to cardiometabolic and ophthalmology. But perhaps expectedly, Boris Zaïtra, the longtime head of business development for Roche Group, doesn’t see it that way..

关键投资者可能会辩称，罗氏的交易有点分散。该公司的主要兴趣涵盖五个研究领域，从肿瘤学，免疫学和神经科学到心脏代谢和眼科。但罗氏集团长期担任业务开发主管的鲍里斯·扎伊特拉（BorisZaïtra）可能并不这么认为。。

“We make sure we try to look at everything that's available,” Zaïtra said. “The art is to make sure your funnel is efficient. You don't want to miss something, but you also cannot boil the ocean.”

Zaïtra说：“我们要确保我们尽量关注所有可用的东西。”。“艺术是确保你的漏斗有效。你不想错过什么，但你也不能煮沸大海。”

Zaïtra, who Roche appointed as head of corporate business development last year, spoke to BioPharma Dive about the tenets of the company’s dealmaking strategy. He also explained why Roche hasn’t done supersized acquisitions lately, and how it plans to tap into the rapidly advancing Chinese biotechnology market..

罗氏（Roche）去年任命扎伊特拉（Zaïtra）为公司业务发展负责人。扎伊特拉（Zaïtra）向BioPharma Dive讲述了公司交易策略的宗旨。他还解释了为什么罗氏最近没有进行大规模收购，以及它计划如何进入快速发展的中国生物技术市场。。

The following conversation has been edited and condensed for clarity.

为了清楚起见，以下对话已被编辑和压缩。

BIOPHARMA DIVE: You were Roche’s head of business group development for 12 years, a period which brought the rise of immuno-oncology, the ups and downs of cell and gene therapy, and, more recently, a bit of a resurgence in neuroscience and a huge push into obesity drugs. How has Roche’s BD strategy changed over that time?.

。在此期间，罗氏的BD战略发生了什么变化？。

BORIS ZAÏTRA:

鲍里斯·扎伊特拉：

I'm not sure the strategy would have changed. The biggest change I witnessed is the reorganization we did last year, where we decided to bring my team and the partnering team into one team — corporate business development — which basically provides under one umbrella end-to-end BD capabilities.

我不确定这种策略是否会改变。我看到的最大变化是我们去年进行的重组，我们决定将我的团队和合作团队合并为一个团队-企业业务开发-它基本上在一个伞下提供端到端的BD功能。

Why did we do that? There are internal factors and external factors. On the internal side, you’ve heard of our “One Pharma” strategy, the bar on R&D excellence. We went through quite a long process to make sure we really define what we are after. Our ambitions are clear. They are high.

我们为什么要这样做？有内部因素和外部因素。在内部，您已经听说过我们的“一家制药”战略，即卓越研发酒吧。我们经历了一个相当长的过程，以确保我们真正确定了我们的目标。我们的雄心壮志是明确的。他们很高。

On the external side, what I would say is the innovation across therapeutic areas, across modalities, across geographies is very exciting, but that's a huge space to search. It's really important to be structured, to be systematic, to be rigorous, to make sure that everybody knows how they fit, what we want to do, what's our risk appetite..

从外部来看，我想说的是跨治疗领域、跨方式、跨地域的创新非常令人兴奋，但这是一个巨大的搜索空间。结构合理、系统化、严格，确保每个人都知道自己的适合程度，我们想做什么，我们的风险偏好是什么，这真的很重要。。

All things being equal, executing a deal today is probably more challenging than it was four or five years ago. It's more complicated, it's more competitive, it's more expensive, it's more intimidating, it’s more sophisticated.

在一切平等的情况下，今天执行协议可能比四、五年前更具挑战性。它更复杂，更具竞争力，更昂贵，更吓人，更复杂。

Outside of Televant, Roche hasn’t made a $5+ billion acquisition in quite some time. In fact, the company seems much more interested in smaller research partnerships. Do you see the average size of your deals changing anytime soon?

在Televant之外，罗氏已经有相当一段时间没有以50多亿美元收购。事实上，该公司似乎对较小的研究合作关系更感兴趣。你认为你的交易平均规模会很快发生变化吗？

ZAÏTRA:

扎伊特拉：

If you look at our size as a company and our financial means, yes, it's been a while since we have been in a deal environment where we would max out. I think that's been a constraint.

如果你看看我们作为一家公司的规模和我们的财务手段，是的，我们已经有一段时间没有处于一个我们会最大限度发挥作用的交易环境中了。我认为这是一个制约因素。

In terms of looking ahead: if you take 2023 and 2024, I think that's a relatively good representation of what we aspire to continue doing. 2023 with

展望未来：如果以2023年和2024年为例，我认为这相对较好地体现了我们渴望继续做的事情。2023年

Carmot

卡莫特

and

和

Televant

电话

, you have more late-stage, building up capabilities in an accelerated way. In 2024, it was a bit more spread. Regor was

，您有更多的后期阶段，以加速的方式建立能力。2024年，它的传播范围更广。Regor是

Phase 1 oncology

第一阶段肿瘤学

, CDK4/6 with ADCs.

，带有ADC的CDK4/6。

There is recognition that we also have to take a portfolio approach. We have to invest in early-stage, mid-stage and late-stage.

人们认识到，我们还必须采取投资组合方法。我们必须在早期、中期和晚期进行投资。

By design, you would want to place many more bets at an early stage, because it also takes more of those to make it all the way through. We clearly aspire and hope that we will be doing deals across the spectrum.

按照设计，你会希望在早期阶段下更多的赌注，因为在整个过程中也需要更多的赌注。我们显然渴望并希望能够达成跨领域的交易。

A sign with the Roche logo stands in front of a tall building.

一座高楼前立着一块带有罗氏标志的牌子。

Permission granted by Roche

罗氏公司授予的许可

An analyst once told me that larger, acquiring companies have an internal ceiling for things like premiums. Your Poseida deal had a premium over 200%. Do premiums and things like that influence your team’s BD decisions?

一位分析师曾告诉我，规模较大的收购公司对保费等方面有一个内部上限。你与波塞达的交易溢价超过了200%。保费和类似的事情会影响您团队的BD决策吗？

ZAÏTRA:

扎伊特拉：

The answer is yes and no. When we do deals, we have to be comfortable with the valuation we pay. You’re referring specifically about public deals. In the case of public deals, you have a price reference, and then there is a premium being paid. If the deal happened, it means the seller and the buyer reached an agreement on price..

。你指的是公开交易。在公开交易的情况下，你有一个价格参考，然后支付溢价。如果交易发生，意味着买卖双方达成了价格协议。。

We're sophisticated players. We look at trading multiples. We look at transaction multiples of similar deals. It's not always easy, but at least we’ve got benchmarks. We do the bottom-up valuation, really looking at the prospects, the platforms, the compounds, assuming they make it all the way to market with the probability adjusted.

我们是老练的球员。我们关注交易倍数。我们查看类似交易的交易倍数。这并不总是容易的，但至少我们有了基准。我们进行自下而上的估值，真正着眼于前景、平台和化合物，假设它们在调整概率的情况下一直进入市场。

We do a deal where we can justify the value..

我们做了一笔交易，可以证明价值。。

There is a benchmark for premium. Typically, you will pay the average, which is in the 60% to 80% branch. Where the data gets a bit more complicated with respect to premium is when you get into smaller [deals]. First, the comparisons are a bit more complicated. And when you get to the sub-$1 billion market cap, then you’ve got liquidity [considerations]..

保费有一个基准。通常，您将支付60%至80%分行的平均费用。。首先，比较有点复杂。当你达到10亿美元以下的市值时，你就有了流动性[考虑因素]。。

The smaller deals tend to attract sometimes some of the highest premiums. That's because perhaps the valuation attributed by the market was not fully reflective of the intrinsic value of the asset.

规模较小的交易有时往往会吸引一些最高的溢价。这是因为市场的估值可能没有完全反映资产的内在价值。

One trend that’s accelerated is the number of deals involving assets from China. Roche itself recently inked deals with the Chinese biotechs Regor, Innovent and Zion Pharma. What’s driving this, do you expect it to continue and how will it impact biotech in the U.S.?

一个加速的趋势是涉及中国资产的交易数量。。是什么推动了这一趋势，你预计它会继续吗？它将如何影响美国的生物技术。？

ZAÏTRA:

扎伊特拉：

China is establishing itself as the second largest place of innovation outside of the U.S. We saw an inflection point last year, which was really outlined by the deals which happened. And it was not only the deals which happened in 2024, but also, if you take the example of bispecifics, the PD1/VEGF [drugs].

中国正在成为美国以外的第二大创新之地。去年我们看到了一个转折点，这一点从所发生的交易中可以看出。不仅是2024年发生的交易，而且如果你以双特异性药物PD1/VEGF[药物]为例。

You had the Akeso-Summit relationship and the readouts, which put a huge focus on what's happening in China..

你们有阿克索峰会的关系和读数，这些都把焦点放在了中国发生的事情上。。

I don't know if this will change, but my sense is: to create innovation, you need to create an ecosystem. You need the entrepreneurs, you need the capital, you need the science, you need the universities. You need all that ecosystem to work in a very synergistic way. You don't create that out of nowhere.

我不知道这是否会改变，但我的感觉是：要创造创新，你需要创造一个生态系统。你需要企业家，你需要资本，你需要科学，你需要大学。你需要所有的生态系统以一种非常协同的方式工作。你不是凭空创造出来的。

So when it happens, to that level of maturity, my sense is this is pretty real and pretty solid. I don't think this will necessarily change..

因此，当它发生时，达到这种成熟程度，我的感觉是这是相当真实和可靠的。我认为这不一定会改变。。

The trend I'm seeing more is people wanting to ensure they are equipped to screen and to tap into that market. Because it is a bit more complicated. That market is not highly intermediated. The opportunities — they are not in databases. You really have to go on the ground. And if you take a given target, you have potentially 10, 20 companies working on that target.

我看到的趋势是，人们希望确保自己具备屏幕功能，并进入该市场。因为它有点复杂。该市场的中介程度不高。机会-它们不在数据库中。你真的必须脚踏实地。如果你设定了一个特定的目标，那么可能会有10、20家公司在努力实现这个目标。

So then, the art becomes to know all of those companies, and then to filter through which of those are really interesting..

因此，艺术变成了了解所有这些公司，然后过滤其中哪些真正有趣。。

To exploit the potential of that market, from a BD perspective, you need to be equipped for that. It's less interrogated, less sophisticated, less mature, probably, as a BD market than the U.S. is.

为了挖掘该市场的潜力，从BD的角度来看，您需要为此做好准备。作为一个BD市场，它可能比美国更不受质疑，更不复杂，更不成熟。

One of the main areas people think of when they think of Roche is oncology. What do you see as the role for these emerging PD-1/VEGF drugs? Are you convinced they’ll be the next big thing in immunotherapy?

人们想到罗氏时想到的主要领域之一是肿瘤学。你认为这些新兴的PD-1/VEGF药物的作用是什么？你确信它们会成为免疫疗法的下一个大目标吗？

ZAÏTRA:

扎伊特拉：

It's very difficult to comment. What is for sure is some data that has been published has been very impressive. The questions we need to answer are: Do we understand exactly what is happening? What exact mechanism? Because those components are not new. VEGF is not new. PD-1 is not new. So what makes it so special when you bind them the way they've been bound as bispecifics?.

很难评论。可以肯定的是，一些已经公布的数据给人留下了深刻印象。我们需要回答的问题是：我们是否确切了解正在发生的事情？确切的机制是什么？因为这些组件不是新的。VEGF并不新鲜。PD-1并不新鲜。那么，当你以双特异性的方式绑定它们时，是什么让它如此特别呢？。

There are now tens of companies getting into this space. Unless I'm wrong, I don't think there's been a lot of disclosure of overall survival data. Clearly, as we know in that space, overall survival will always be very important.

现在有几十家公司进入这个领域。除非我错了，否则我认为总体生存数据不会被披露太多。显然，正如我们在这个领域所知，总体生存将始终非常重要。

I think it's very exciting, and let's see how things unfold. I think maybe later this year, at latest, there will be more data that will shed a better light as to how big of an opportunity these will be for patients.

我认为这很令人兴奋，让我们看看事情是如何发展的。我认为，最迟在今年晚些时候，可能会有更多的数据可以更好地揭示这些对患者来说有多大的机会。